My project - 260 INCH

[woody_rod]

This is true, I handled the 35mm Bushmaster fairly recently and the cases have very short necks, however they are also made out of steel and have a significant crimp around the neck as well as appearing to be glued in (Maybe a lacquer instead?) They are also very well contained for transit.

I am with Vince on this, it is unusual and interesting and I would like to see someone try the short neck over here. Come on Vince, you have no excuses with Diggle all but in your back garden and a workshop as well, you could chamber and test all in the same day

There are no handling issues, I won't bother repeating this.

It is an interesting topic, but this is not new to the UK. Laurie Ingram spent time shooting and testing in the UK as far as I know, maybe people should take more notice of what is going on around them

I think the 7-08 INCH has real potential Robert. Considering the other things we are looking into for our "teams".

[R.G.C]

This is true, I handled the 35mm Bushmaster fairly recently and the cases have very short necks, however they are also made out of steel and have a significant crimp around the neck as well as appearing to be glued in (Maybe a lacquer instead?) They are also very well contained for transit.

I am with Vince on this, it is unusual and interesting and I would like to see someone try the short neck over here. Come on Vince, you have no excuses with Diggle all but in your back garden and a workshop as well, you could chamber and test all in the same day

There are no handling issues, I won't bother repeating this.

It is an interesting topic, but this is not new to the UK. Laurie Ingram spent time shooting and testing in the UK as far as I know, maybe people should take more notice of what is going on around them

I think the 7-08 INCH has real potential Robert. Considering the other things we are looking into for our "teams".

Rod,

Laurie made all the development in his home town and range on the Cote d'Azur. Shot it in the 2008 and 2009 Imperial Meetings in the Inch prototype with interchange barrels, his own verion of the 6BR on shorts and .260 Inch to go over the hill. You have the .260 tramer, but the 6BR improved is lost. It was on the same principle f moving forward the 6BR neck.

What do you mean about the 7-08????

R.G.C

[R.G.C]

This is true, I handled the 35mm Bushmaster fairly recently and the cases have very short necks, however they are also made out of steel and have a significant crimp around the neck as well as appearing to be glued in (Maybe a lacquer instead?) They are also very well contained for transit.

I am with Vince on this, it is unusual and interesting and I would like to see someone try the short neck over here. Come on Vince, you have no excuses with Diggle all but in your back garden and a workshop as well, you could chamber and test all in the same day

Ovenpaa

The lacker is a sealant for 'tropicalisation' of the round. Shells in a fighting vehicle are quite mishandled and shacked in combat, I believe, and I remeember the scrapmen here emptying the panzers and torning the very short necked 75 and 88 in the tanks tracks to recover the brass (we the boys were behind to pick the long strips of 'powder", imagine that to day!!!). Needed quite an effort to separate shell and case. Steel cased ones were left in piles for the military specialists to very ikely do the same, as I have still here one 75 PAK case showing the marks of torning on the neck.

For creating a new round, necessary to have a purpose made reamer, or have one mofigied by a reamer maker from a no longer used one. It is difficult to imagine modifying oneself a reamer or using two reamers for creating the wildcat.
Even modifying an existing reamer, taking also into account the reluctance of the manufacturer who prefer to start (and sell) from new is not ideal, I think. Better th have one new made exactly on drawing.

Even if Woody have had a single bad experience with them, I recommend TRiebel on this side of the pond more than the americans; for us, he is in EC, their work is outstanding and their delays are short, often 2-3 weeks...not really thier prices!!, but quality has a cost

www.triebel-guntools.de

R.G.C

[woody_rod]

What do you mean about the 7-08????

R.G.C

My mistake, I mean the 284 INCH HAHAHAHAHA!!!

With the teams for international F Class shooting....

[woody_rod]

Even if Woody have had a single bad experience with them, I recommend TRiebel on this side of the pond more than the americans; for us, he is in EC, their work is outstanding and their delays are short, often 2-3 weeks...not really thier prices!!, but quality has a cost
R.G.C

My bad experience was with a big US reamer maker.

Expense is the word, about 3-4 times the cost of a reamer from the USA. So far, I have used reamers from 4 different places, with the Triebel units being by far the best. The chamber in my 260 is outstanding in finish, and the cutting ability was far superior to the US made reamer used for roughing.

Today, I started playing with my 6BR barrel, now having it screwed onto the 0014 INCH of mine, which incidentally has shot in the USA and UK. I am trying an AU made barrel (MAB or TSE), which looks very nice on the inside. This should be a good test for the barrel, as the chambering is well known to be accurate.

[ovenpaa]

On the new reamer subject a question for the Brit rifle makers. There you are enjoying a cup of tea and suddenly something new springs to mind (such as your 260 NETT Vince) So you grab a spare barrel blank, cut the chamber and screw the receiver on, you now have something new and un-named, how do you go about adding to your certificate? Is it a matter of just entering and getting it proofed or is it more involved?

Woody as an Aussie rifle builder what is the procedure for new un-named chamberings in your part of the world?

From my perspective and with us having two wildcats with odd names (The 22 Christel and the 7mm Christel) The only minor problem we had was the firearms licensing team had to find someone who knew how to add a new cartridge to the police computer, once he had that sussed he was quite happy and admitted he had learnt something new. Other than that we just discuss and agree what we want, what it is called and the rifle builder does his magic

[The Gun Pimp]

Good question,

If you invent a name - like 22 Christel or 260 Nett it often goes on as '224' or '260'.

I don't think that cartridges that are not in the 'Big Book of Cartridges' are recognised!

Cheers
Vince

[R.G.C]

On the new reamer subject a question for the Brit rifle makers. There you are enjoying a cup of tea and suddenly something new springs to mind (such as your 260 NETT Vince) So you grab a spare barrel blank, cut the chamber and screw the receiver on, you now have something new and un-named, how do you go about adding to your certificate? Is it a matter of just entering and getting it proofed or is it more involved?

Woody as an Aussie rifle builder what is the procedure for new un-named chamberings in your part of the world?

From my perspective and with us having two wildcats with odd names (The 22 Christel and the 7mm Christel) The only minor problem we had was the firearms licensing team had to find someone who knew how to add a new cartridge to the police computer, once he had that sussed he was quite happy and admitted he had learnt something new. Other than that we just discuss and agree what we want, what it is called and the rifle builder does his magic

Ovenpaa,
Pertinent question, difficult reply.

I do not think the question should be addressed to aussies, as there is no proofing procedure, nor norms on the subject in their country.

There is two lists of calmibres:
-SAAMI (Society of Arms and Ammunition Makers Industry), USA Industry association who is what its name says and who establish recommendations, not rules.. I believe entering a caliber in the SAAMI list is not very much of a problem. Their measurements are Imperial
-CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes a Feu et des Munitions) (Sorry, the official CIP language is french!!). Memeber countries have their representatives in the Commission appointed by their respective govermenets at the higher level, as are their Proof Masters.
CIP is metric but the differences in sizes, shuld they exist, are uniquely because “eounding” conversions.
UK, as quite a few ‘civilised’ (in that matter) countries, is CIP member and firearms are by law to be submitted to proofing before use as new, or after a major modification such as rebarreling..

The testing procedure is well established, rigorous and reciprocity is the rule between the national proofhouses. A firearm proofed in a country can be used with no further procedures in all the others (BTW, I presume NRA-GB is in full illegality when they institute their own rules on the matter. A CIP-proofed for the .308 Winchester calibre can be used anywhere in UK…except at Bisley!!!!...Also, 7,62x51 is no longer an official CIP denomination.

The rle for determining a calibre is simple: wheter it is in the CIP tolerance, and the calibre denomination apply, ut the slightesr diemesion variation deim those tolerance, and the round or the forearm to chamber it IS NO LONGER of the calible. For instance, moving the sholder as little as 0,1mm, or using a case a little longer than the listed lenght can in theory take the combo out of the calibre specifications.

CIP proofing follow a severe protocol, and I have difficulty to beliece all the bad things I have heard about the UK Proofhouses. The ones I have visited, in France; Belgium, Germany are competent and serious and follow the official protocol.

The protocol consist in an inspection and measurements, firing of two proof rounds intended to develop a pressure much over the listed one for the calibre, final inspection. The firearm is then stamped with the proofhouse marking, a letter indication of the year, and a certificate is delivered. This certificate bears the Piezo pressure the proof ammunition developed in official pressure test gun (usually pressure-test ammunition supplied by ammunition manufacturers).
All the above is valid for CIP-listed ammunition, for which the Proodhouse is compelled to keep proof ammunition. But, when the calibre is not CIP listed, the person presenting the firearm for proofing I requested to supply two normal rounds of ammunition, who are then heated for two hours in a oven and fired. This heating is presumed to deliver 50% more pressure. The fiream is then also stamped, but the proof certificate bears the mention of this specific proofing and no mention is made on it of the pressure developped (normal, as this pressure has not been tested). I can say the rise in pressure is real, having inspected cases proof-fired this way!!!

All this to say the proof certificate should make the firearms ‘legal”, even for the licencing authorities. Now, an inventor can always enter in the procedure of having his brainchild officially entered in the CIP list of calibres.. This is possible but I do not know the procedure, the cost and time involved….

I can quote two examples in my country, this is the 30-06 Cartry, a 30-06 shortened by 2,54mm, and the .30M1 Short, again a .30M1 shortened by 1,27mm. Those two rounds were created to turn around our funny regulations on military calibres, and are in the CIP official list.
I do not think there is many wildcatters who have taken the trouble of an official CIP recognition?.

If a member want to have a list of common CIP rifle calibres, send me anPM giving your Email address.
R.G.C

[R.G.C]

What do you mean about the 7-08????

R.G.C

My mistake, I mean the 284 INCH HAHAHAHAHA!!!

With the teams for international F Class shooting....

Rod,

The idea of a 7mm-.284 'INCHeoised' makes its way in their minds. Will Email you on the subject.

R.G.C

[ovenpaa]

Pertinent question, difficult reply.

I do not think the question should be addressed to aussies, as there is no proofing procedure, nor norms on the subject in their country.

There is two lists of calmibres:
-SAAMI (Society of Arms and Ammunition Makers Industry), USA Industry association who is what its name says and who establish recommendations, not rules.. I believe entering a caliber in the SAAMI list is not very much of a problem. Their measurements are Imperial
-CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes a Feu et des Munitions) (Sorry, the official CIP language is french!!).

<Snip>

Robert, thank you for reply, I have learnt something. It does however lead me onto another question. Obviously the test rounds are fired and the action and barrel inspected along with the fired cases and assuming there are no signs of damage everything is proof stamped, however how do they tell the pressure that it has been tested to, or do they not look for the pressure so much as signs of significant over pressure such as cratering, hard bolt lift and then *assume* based on the barrel and action manufacturers and previous experience that the new cartridge is safe to use?