300 Blackout

[John MH]

LanTac, very nicely finished kit but there's no way I'd pay over £2000 for what is basically a collection of other manufacturers parts (as are most AR platform builds!).
NorthWest Custom Parts - No Parts for about 4 months
Mark Bradley - Same as above so I was told

As far as parts go I think everyone is struggling and there are moves for people to get parts manufactured in the UK or sourced from non-US manufacturers, so if its a rifle build with non-US parts you are after then most of the above should be able to sort you out; lowers, uppers and barrels are sourced in the UK by both LanTac and Bradley Arms so no shortage there.

If you want something specific and US made then that where you might run into problems as most of the well know US manufactures have big back order queues; LaRue, Noveske Rifleworks, Daniel Defense and CMMG.

I'd try again and see what is available and don't go on hearsay, but if you want all the fancy US bling you might have to wait.

[phaedra1106]

I'd try again and see what is available and don't go on hearsay, but if you want all the fancy US bling you might have to wait.

No, that's the last thing I want.

I looked at the NEA-15 (in .223) as it's a basic AR platform build at £1300, there is no way I could or would pay any more considering something like a DPMS carbine sells in the US for £500 ($749)

[John MH]

Best to keep an eye out for a S/H AR then, they do come up in that price range regularly.

[AR15]

LanTac, very nicely finished kit but there's no way I'd pay over £2000 for what is basically a collection of other manufacturers parts (as are most AR platform builds!).
NorthWest Custom Parts - No Parts for about 4 months
Mark Bradley - Same as above so I was told

I was also after a straight pull in 223, my friend in the US has a NEA-15 (Canadian North Eastern Arms), LanTac are/were one of the UK importers but are no longer selling them as in their words "Not saying they are bad but the 4 we had were not very good quality" which is very odd as they have a good reputation and my friends (and his friends) are spot on.

At £1300 they were a lot cheaper than LanTacs own offerings. Suffolk Rifle Company have one left which is their demo "Gucci" model. I've emailed NEA to see what the position is with a UK supplier. Only other option is an LMT which one of my local RFDs sells for less than LanTac who again are one of the distributors!.

I think you have your facts wrong. We don't sell LMT's at all and we are not a distributor of LMT's either.
If you think out rifles are constructed from a collection of other peoples parts you are also wrong. We manufacture our own uppers both semi auto and dedicated side charging, lowers both semi and full auto, handguards, triggers and muzzle devices. All other small parts extensions and bolts are made for us, largely from our own drawings.
We have absolutely no issues getting standard gun parts, or with American accessories on the whole (the latter taking longer than normal).
All custom barrel work is done in house on a CNC lathe for turning and threading and manually for chambering and for some calibers especially the Blackout we have our own improved reamers.
We produce a true side charging rifle with fettled bolt, freefloat handguard, nitrided barrel and certified 7075T6 billet receivers that are class2 hard coat anodised to all the correct specs with basic furniture for £1560 inc VAT and Proof.
If you want a custom gun then its going to be more, obviously.
Unlike other dealers we are VAT registered and therefore have to charge 20% extra, we cannot avoid that as our turnover is above the threshold.
On a personal level my drawings and designs have been licensed to American parts manufacturers who make for a number of US companies including ones who have guns available in the UK, so my work is behind some of their products too.
We also spent a great deal of time getting a 9.5'' barreled Blackout rifle to fire a 220Gr bullet at 995FPS through a ASE Utra S7 Borelock suppressor and group at .5''@100yards, with Remington Factory Ammo.
Good luck getting a Blackout Saami print reamer with a 1:8 twist to do that in a short barrel.
That rifle system is currently being evaluated by DSTL for Special Forces.
Also that Borelock brake mount is dreadful with subs, it opened our groups up as compared to the flash hider mount, in a 9.5'' anyway.
The 4 NEA guns we got were not good, ask anyone who looked at them. Hopefully they have pulled their trousers up now.

[John MH]

Anything less than a 300mm barrel is academic here, for what its worth my 16" shoots 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with 147 FMJs

[AR15]

It's a 16'' barrel John, have you tried a12''? What velocity for the 147's? also have you ever tried 220's subsonic?

[phaedra1106]

My apologies as it appears I have mixed up several lots of information I have been given over the last few months.

North West are selling the LMT's not yourselves as you say. The price you quote above for a 300BLK is very good and if I'd known that I would have ordered one from you! however, the only price I can see on your website is for the 223 version and that's £2,795. If there's a 223 version around the same price as the 300BLK I would have ordered one of each!.

[John MH]

It's a 16'' barrel John, have you tried a12''? What velocity for the 147's? also have you ever tried 220's subsonic?

I dont have a 12" any more, my previous 300/221 Whisper was a 12" and also shot well at 100 with easily 3/4 MOA groups but I wanted something with a longer barrel. I never shot any truly subsonic loads although it did have a moderator, I do know others that have shot 1 MOA groups with the 300/221 Whisper through 12" barrels and moderators and 200 grain Lapua's.

[AR15]

Whisper but not Blackout. The Saami print for Blackout is way too loose and a 1:8 is too slow for 220's at 995-1000FPS in short barrels, say 12''.
I have no experience with Whisper btw, only Blackout.
The 220SMK is a long bullet that will yaw and become Dynamically unstable before regaining stability down range, because of its length not much yaw is required for the tip or tail to get very close to suppressor baffles, run it through a long 7 baffle can and you will get interference from the last one or two baffles, not strikes but close enough for the pressure to effect accuracy. I have seen a 1:8 Twist rifle that grouped with factory220 subs at 1.0-1.5MOA, open up to 6MOA through a 7 baffle can with no visible strikes, run a S5 on it and it shot the same 1-1.5MOA group no problem. Most of the holes at 6MOA where slashed.
The same barrel would shoot 125Gr Factory supersonic at 3/4MOA with good, concentric holes on paper .

The key to all of this is Static and Dynamic stability, while modern ballistic programs will tell you that your bullet is Statically OK, ie it is being spun fast enough to be gyroscopically stable they don't factor in bullet profile, Ogive dimensions, boat tail shape etc... and the correlation between Static and Dynamic stability. Dynamic stability is not automatically guaranteed. Some bullets are dynamically unstable at the moment they leave the barrel (or close too), like the 220's, others may loose dynamic stability during flight after decelerating.
We spent an entire day getting a Windows7 PC to run a very old bit of original Windows code that we were given, to my knowledge its the only thing available that models both Static and Dynamic stability.
Every other bit of software including Brian Litz JBM calculator will tell you that the 220 is stable at a factor of 1.970 approx, in reality if you apply the Static data to the Dynamic you will find that due to the bullet shape and speed the RPM is not enough to counteract Yaw and that the stability factor is more like .800 at 995FPS with a 1:8 Twist.
We were able to plug in a whole load of different bullet shapes, twists, Quick Load and actual measured velocities to get the best setup for the job. For the first time it got close to simulating what we were seeing down range.
Also bear in mind that we were designing a rifle to shoot factory ammunition as accurately as possible, working with Remington 220Subs. Handloads are considerably more accurate.
After twist rate was figured out it quickly became obvious that the 'Sporting' style Saami Blackout print was way too loose for good accuracy in proper subsonic loads, those long heavy slow bullets need to be setup in the chamber tight, so each one is as close to the next as possible in alignment, we set about making that chamber better.
What we have now is the equivalent to a Blackout Match.

[saddler]

Great read & some good information there.

I am starting to wonder what exactly SAAMI are up to, as they made a real hash of the 6.8SPC data too & published a very early spec. as "the norm" by which time the 6.8 community had moved on to SPEC II configuration of a different chamber & better rifling type, etc.

They seem a little behind the times & off target in some ways