Long barreled pistols question

[IainWR]

On this one I believe it is Tattooed Gun who is spot-on. The important things are Section 1 Firearms Act, which (broadly) says you can only possess a firearm if it's entered on your Certificate, and S15(1) Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended, which creates an exemption for members of Home Office Approved clubs. The exemption is phrased entirely in terms of what the borrower may do. It applies to rifles and muzzle-loading pistols. Unless you can argue that an LBP is a "rifle" for the purposes of S15, the exemption does not apply. I have tried, and I can't find such an argument - in fact quite the opposite. The Home Office says the exemption doesn't apply (which is opinion, not law until it goes to a suitable court). If it does apply, it is irrelevant who it is borrowed from, provided the firearm is legally owned in the first place.

If you want a detailed discussion, and are NRA affiliated, contact me at work.

Iain

[dromia]

So in Dorset Shooters case his club has a variation for an LBR/LBP and have acquired one and unless the club have convinced firearms certification and the HO that is is a rifle and not a LBR/LBP but a rifle then no one can use it.

The whole nub of this in relation to Dorset Shooters situation is what it says on the club FAC in relation to the LBR/LBP slot.

[TattooedGun]

So in Dorset Shooters case his club has a variation for an LBR/LBP and have acquired one and unless the club have convinced firearms certification and the HO that is is a rifle and not a LBR/LBP but a rifle then no one can use it.

The whole nub of this in relation to Dorset Shooters situation is what it says on the club FAC in relation to the LBR/LBP slot.

I would say it's more down to what the home office exemption certificate states, rather than the FAC, since that's to document that allows people to shoot firearms which do not belong to them.

Correction: unless you mean what the fac says in relation to the mechanism of the firearm. Misread.

[dromia]

The exemption would apply if it was defined on the FAC as a rifle. Which seems to be the only way you can get such firearms on a club FAC.

[kennyc]

On this one I believe it is Tattooed Gun who is spot-on. The important things are Section 1 Firearms Act, which (broadly) says you can only possess a firearm if it's entered on your Certificate, and S15(1) Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended, which creates an exemption for members of Home Office Approved clubs. The exemption is phrased entirely in terms of what the borrower may do. It applies to rifles and muzzle-loading pistols. Unless you can argue that an LBP is a "rifle" for the purposes of S15, the exemption does not apply. I have tried, and I can't find such an argument - in fact quite the opposite. The Home Office says the exemption doesn't apply (which is opinion, not law until it goes to a suitable court). If it does apply, it is irrelevant who it is borrowed from, provided the firearm is legally owned in the first place.

If you want a detailed discussion, and are NRA affiliated, contact me at work.

Iain

out of interest, how are long barrelled pistols/revolvers described in law? do they have a specific status? is there a class off firearm specifically described as LBR/LBP ? or are they allowed because they exceed a minimum length standard which relates to rifles but doesn't specifically exclude pistols/revolvers ?

[Alpha1]

Well that opened a can of worms.

[Dorset_shooter]

Well that opened a can of worms.

Just shows how no one really fully knows how this stands in the eyes of the law, myself included.

Logic doesn't apply with the firearms laws in the uk & to protect myself I'll do some more research.

I'm fully aware that lbp's & lbr's are in a different category then your average rifle, even though they have to at least on paper be a rifle & conform to size requirements that are imposed on us.

I enjoy shooting lbp, I missed the legal handgun era. This is the next best thing.

I also know it would be a much bigger market if people could get there head around the law.

The more people , young (post ban) and older (pre ban) to use lbp & lbr the more choice of guns would be available.

[Alpha1]

Whats the difference between a long barrelled pistol and a long barrelled rifle.

[TattooedGun]

On this one I believe it is Tattooed Gun who is spot-on. The important things are Section 1 Firearms Act, which (broadly) says you can only possess a firearm if it's entered on your Certificate, and S15(1) Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended, which creates an exemption for members of Home Office Approved clubs. The exemption is phrased entirely in terms of what the borrower may do. It applies to rifles and muzzle-loading pistols. Unless you can argue that an LBP is a "rifle" for the purposes of S15, the exemption does not apply. I have tried, and I can't find such an argument - in fact quite the opposite. The Home Office says the exemption doesn't apply (which is opinion, not law until it goes to a suitable court). If it does apply, it is irrelevant who it is borrowed from, provided the firearm is legally owned in the first place.

If you want a detailed discussion, and are NRA affiliated, contact me at work.

Iain

out of interest, how are long barrelled pistols/revolvers described in law? do they have a specific status? is there a class off firearm specifically described as LBR/LBP ? or are they allowed because they exceed a minimum length standard which relates to rifles but doesn't specifically exclude pistols/revolvers ?

After having thought on this some of the day, I came back to the Home Office Guidance. Now we know that this is guidance, and not legislation, but is a good way to get a view of what the is deemed to be the Home Office way of thinking on the legislation and how it is intended.

I draw you, and dromia back to the quote 18 (3) again:

18 (3): Members of a rifle club, miniature rifle club or muzzle-loading pistol club approved by the Secretary of State or the Scottish Ministers may, without holding firearm certificates, have in their possession firearms and ammunition when engaged as members of the club in, or in connection with, target shooting (section 15(1) of the 1988 Act as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act). It should be noted that section 15(1) does not stipulate that the firearms must be club firearms. A member of an approved club may temporarily possess a firearm solely in connection with target shooting on the club's range, or other ranges which it may use. However, a person cannot possess a firearm under this exemption if it is a class of firearm for which the club is not approved. It should also be noted that section 15(1) of the 1988 Act, as amended, does not apply to the use of long barrelled pistols or section 1 shotguns used for target shooting, as it only allows possession of rifles or muzzle-loading pistols at suitably approved clubs. Accordingly, club approval cannot be extended to cover the use of these firearms.

This is of course out on the .Gov website for anyone to get a hold of.

I draw your attention to the bit in Bold.

This would certainly indicate that LBP's and section 1 shotguns are treated as completely separate entities to the small-bore rifles, full-bore rifles and muzzle loading pistols that are covered by the exemption.

Interestingly, following our conversation earlier about having the exceptional circumstances, it appears to be clarified within this guidance note that "Accordingly, club approval cannot be extended to cover the use of these firearms." Which is to say, the Home Office themselves, will not grant approval for the sharing of these firearms.

It is of course, open to interpretation, however, it's there in black and white and you'd need to be pretty creative to work around it and be compliant with the Home Office regulations.

[Alpha1]

Whats the difference between a long barrelled pistol and a long barrelled rifle.