The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

ovenpaa wrote:

Mike357 wrote:I would be interested to see how this product works in copper free barrels such as 22s and under levers, is that possible?

Mike, if you are happy to test I will get a bottle posted out to you to see how it performs.

Ovenpaa, a kind offer, thank you. I am wondering though how the effectiveness of the product could be checked. The carbon would be evident on the patches but how do we know if lead is removed?

Mike, how do you usually take the lead fouling out?

Mike we were debating this yesterday.

How do you measure how much "crud" comes out of a barrel since you have:
1. Bullet jacket gilded alloy
2. Hard baked carbon
3. Lead
4. Loose carbon
5. Nickel (certain bullets)
6. Brass - flecks from inside case - e.g. the shavings around primer flash holes
All this material is blasted under intense pressure and heat down the barrel and coats it in different places and with differring levels..

CR2 is very adept at getting under lead / moly - this breaks the bond to barrel steel.

Though I expect lead fouling is visible under a Borescope like copper and carbon!

The water patches are excellent at gripping and pulling this flakes along and I suspect they should be visible - since unlike the copper (which is dissolved) the lead would be visible.
We had a similar experience with some nickel that came out of Ovenpas's AI - from a shoot in Denmark early in 2012.

TIM - ENS

ovenpaa wrote:Mike, how do you usually take the lead fouling out?

Probably not PC now but when I was a lad you just put a cork in the end of your barrel and filled it up with mercury. Left it for a couple of hours then brushed the crud out. The mercury was returned to the jam-jar for later use. The mercury originally came from large tilt switched in old pre-war fridges.

ovenpaa wrote:Mike, how do you usually take the lead fouling out?

Well good news, I haven't! The Microgroove Marlin has never had the barrel cleaned since I got it. The match grade barrel on my RM 10/22 again has not been cleaned and SYSS advise not to use any bronze brushes. So, two manky barrels that probably do need cleaned for the forthcoming season.

Leading removal depends on the nature of the leading.

If it plated on due to gas burning on the edges of the bullet base, due to poor bullet fit, then scrubbing with and abrasive like JB bore paste or valve lapping compound is the only effective way.

Friction leading, most common type, due mainly to lube issues, poor bullet fit, and too hard an alloy for the application then the best way is by using a creeping type oil, like Kroil or my favourite 50/50 acetone/ATF, this seeps 'tween the leading and the barrel and the lead is then lifted away with tight patches.

As Allan has said since mercury has become hard to get there is no current safe chemical method for degrading lead for removal that I am aware of.

However you shouldn't be getting leading in the first place. Once you have a working lead load then leading should never be an issue and cleaning is a breeze, couple of passes with Ed's Red soaked patches dried and then oiled for storage is all my lead shooters need. Unlike condom users who are forever struggling with copper fouling as this eternal product development issue demonstrates.

It is not a good idea to clean lead shooting barrels back to bare metal, you will then have to use up ammunition to get it "seasoned" again for consistent grouping. However in most cases for good lead work then all copper fouling must be removed before shooting lead.

Some questions:

a) If you re-run this experiment, is it worth adding in something like neat ammonia as a control solution? (I realise the Napier stuff is probably the best control as it seemingly doesn't touch copper, but it's nice to have an actual reference point!)

b) Where can I buy the C2R???

c) Is there a way of simulating the effect of a good brushing? Appreciated it's tricky enough to simulate patches...

I could have used ammonia or water however I did not think of it the time

C2R is listed on the Dansk Gevaer consumables site. www.danishrifles.com

We have just finished a test that specifically attempts to replicate mechanical abrasion of cleaning patches on copper with a solvent. I will write the test up over the weekend.