The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Dark Skies wrote:It conjures up an interesting scenario in my head of householders standing outside their burning dwelling listening to possibly thousands of rounds of ammunition going off in the confines of Home Office approved steel cabinets and saying "at least my stash of primers may yet be saved, so there's that". :)

You wouldn't even hear your ammunition in steel cabinets 'cook-off' even if you were inside the house. Smallarms ball ammunition is given the lowest hazard classification 'safety class' for a reason. It is very hard to make it ignite outside of a firearm, heat/fire being the almost sole exception; despite Hollywood etc, test after test after test shows that even in a fierce fire, ordinary ball or sporting ammo does NOT explode. When the powder charge ignites inside a cartridge which has no confining chamber, two possible occurrences take place - either the bullet is 'popped' at virtually nil velocity and the powder then burns hotly but non-explosively inside the case and/or if the bullet is a really tight fit, the brass case splits first, but with the same results as bullet removal.

There are lots of videos and research papers around on this subject including those done specifically for firefighter training.

Here's one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c

Anyway, who said your stash of primers will be saved? It won't and they'll explode - but if stored in a non-confining box or whatever, the life of a firefighter might be! To repeat myself, that's why the BP storage regulations are as they are - not to stop its exploding in a fire but to mitigate the power of that explosion and its possible lethality for anybody close by, but in particular firefighters.

My loading set up is in my garage. Three kitchen cabinets on the wall above the bench. One black powder box on to bench, screwed to the wall. One kitchen cupboard contains only smokeless powder. One cupboard contains bullets and primers and the other cupboard dies, etc.

Added advantage should some official d1ck in the future demand “secure storage” for powder or primers, hasp and padlock can be fitted in minutes.

Till then, store your primers where atmospheric conditions maintain the integrity of the primer for use, giving consideration to SAAMI advice. Can’t see anyone having an issue with that...

Laurie wrote:

Dark Skies wrote:It conjures up an interesting scenario in my head of householders standing outside their burning dwelling listening to possibly thousands of rounds of ammunition going off in the confines of Home Office approved steel cabinets and saying "at least my stash of primers may yet be saved, so there's that". :)

You wouldn't even hear your ammunition in steel cabinets 'cook-off' even if you were inside the house. Smallarms ball ammunition is given the lowest hazard classification 'safety class' for a reason. It is very hard to make it ignite outside of a firearm, heat/fire being the almost sole exception; despite Hollywood etc, test after test after test shows that even in a fierce fire, ordinary ball or sporting ammo does NOT explode. When the powder charge ignites inside a cartridge which has no confining chamber, two possible occurrences take place - either the bullet is 'popped' at virtually nil velocity and the powder then burns hotly but non-explosively inside the case and/or if the bullet is a really tight fit, the brass case splits first, but with the same results as bullet removal.

There are lots of videos and research papers around on this subject including those done specifically for firefighter training.

Here's one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SlOXowwC4c

Anyway, who said your stash of primers will be saved? It won't and they'll explode - but if stored in a non-confining box or whatever, the life of a firefighter might be! To repeat myself, that's why the BP storage regulations are as they are - not to stop its exploding in a fire but to mitigate the power of that explosion and its possible lethality for anybody close by, but in particular firefighters.

Yes, I know. I was being flippant. I have zero concerns about the safe / secure storage of my primers and ammunition. The only reason my primers are in a lockable case is for the benefit of visiting FEO who might be minded to make up their own rules as they are wont to do from time to time. Making it a habit leaves you less likely to fail on the day.

You seem to have done a 180 from your original stance:
"I'd be wary about putting primers into a steel safe"

LPG cylinders are a far greater risk to fire-fighters than sporting ammunition stored properly (the way that Laurie recommends). In 32 years in the fire service I never came across any incidents where anyone was killed or seriously injured that involved sporting ammunition and a fire in domestic premises.
I personally know of five fatal fires involving LPG cylinders one of which took the life of a colleague. On another occasion we had a near miss with a LPG cylinder which blew four of us off our feet when it exploded. I know which worried me more.

Dark Skies wrote:You seem to have done a 180 from your original stance:
"I'd be wary about putting primers into a steel safe"

No, that was my original position and is still the same. Should a large quantity of primers detonate en masse, the potential damage is enhanced by storage in a strong metal container. That is because it confines the expanding gases and if the container walls fail under that pressure you will get a much nastier result. After all that's why a standard artillery shell, aircraft bomb, or hand grenade use a thick iron covering around a relatively small explosive filling - the mixture of pressure containment allied to the resulting lethal dispersal of metal fragments, usually (but inaccurately) described as 'shrapnel'.

.......... and primers are scary items! Here's a cautionary tale from my own experience which I think Dromia might appreciate, but is a serious example of 'Do not do this yourselves at home' practices which I'll pass on to the unwary.

Around 20 or so years ago, maybe more, I bought several hundred loose surplus mixed-make 7.92XS57mm sS rounds, £6 or £7 /100 so it has to be a long while back.

When I sorted them out, I found an old Kynoch 7.65X53mm Mauser soft-point round, which I now had in my possession illegally as I had no slot for such on my FAC. Sorting that was easy enough - two secs with the bullet puller and dump the powder.

But ... I wanted the round for my inert ammo collection, so the primer had to go. Being 1960s Kynoch, it was a Berdan primed case so a gently applied decapper die on the press was no good. Couldn't fire it as I didn't have a suitable firearm and it wouldn't chamber in anything I did have. I could have soaked the case and primer in mineral oil ... but I already knew how hard it is to completely deactivate primers. Easy enough to degrade their performance, very hard to 'kill' them.

So, I thought and thought and rummaged around in my kit and settled on a 308 Win Lee Loader kit. Use the main part as a chamber, the decapper rod/pin as a rough and ready firing pin held against the primer and tap it with a hammer. Having popped the odd primed case in rifles before, you get a sharp crack, maybe even a bit of muzzle flash, that's all.

BUT ... who'd forgotten that in commercial ammo (as opposed to milspec with its crimped-in primers) the only thing that holds the primer in the case is the bolt?

Anyway, into the garage. Tap the case into the 308 'Loader' so it's a tight fit, hold it facing down against a concrete floor, place the rod/pin onto the primer also holding it with the left hand using thumb and one finger; take the hammer with the right hand and hit the back end of the rod with a hammer.

It worked alright, too bl**dy alright by far. There was an earsplitting 'crack' - my ears buzzed and whistled for an hour or two afterwards, and it probably did some permanent damage. My left hand and fingers hurt like b*gg*ry - akin to having a large 'banger' go off in your hand for those old enough to remember this variety of pre HSE-Commission firework. The Lee decap rod was blown clear out of my right hand and the primer ricochet'd around the garage fortunately missing my face and even more luckily my eye in the process.

The moral of this tale is don't muck around with primers. A 5K 'brick' of LRs or LPs likely contains a pound weight or thereabouts of primary explosive - and it IS explosives not propellants, pretty powerful stuff at that.

Chapuis wrote:LPG cylinders are a far greater risk to fire-fighters than sporting ammunition stored properly (the way that Laurie recommends). In 32 years in the fire service I never came across any incidents where anyone was killed or seriously injured that involved sporting ammunition and a fire in domestic premises.
I personally know of five fatal fires involving LPG cylinders one of which took the life of a colleague. On another occasion we had a near miss with a LPG cylinder which blew four of us off our feet when it exploded. I know which worried me more.

I can well understand that. Years back when I spent my working life moving thousand ton lots of petroleum products including LPG around the country by rail, we were shown a film of an American LPG rail tanker car that had suffered an acutely overheated axle-bearing and had been detached from the train and put into a siding with the fire brigade called to hose it over and cool it down. Obviously, this failed or a fire started before they got there because the tanker is venting burning gas as the film started - then the pressure vessel went and there was an almighty explosion and column of fire - hundreds of feet up into the air. Very impressive despite being filmed from some distance away! Our UK gauge bogie petroleum tankers hold 70-80 tonnes product, but American rolling stock is much bigger than ours, so 100 plus tonnes LPG?

Ironically, shortly afterwards seeing this film, one of 'our' trains, the daily ICI Haverton Hill (Teesside) to Manchester Glazebrook train of 13 X 100 tonne GLW bogie cars had a catastrophic bearing and axle failure whilst traveling through Summit Tunnel under the Pennines, derailed and caught fire. The fire burned for several days and melted the brick lining of the Victorian tunnel such was the heat - but these Victorians built things to last, it required surprisingly little work to reopen the tunnel. Even so, it was closed for about a year IIRC.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... 30-8315156

That was motor spirit ('petrol' to the man on the street) not LPG - which would likely have converted the tunnel into a deep trench in the hills.

I believe that I have seen the film of the American railcar incident that you mention Laurie. It's what is called a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion).
That particular film was going through my mind when we dealt with an articulated truck full of LPG cylinders on the side of the motorway one day. The cause of the problem was a seized brake drum on the trailer. Standard practise is not to use water on brake drums because of the risk of cracking but on this occasion I was taking no chances and gave the order to give it a good soaking.


Another incident involved a lorry and draw bar trailer load of LPG cylinders. A newly qualified driver forgot to release the trailer brakes before setting off down the motorway and had dragged the trailer for some a considerable number of miles with smoke coming from all wheels.

I believe that I have seen the film of the American railcar incident that you mention Laurie. It's what is called a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion). [Chapuis]

I was trying to recall that acronym when I typed the post. - It's terrible what you forget as the years (decades) roll by!

Guys, the hair is beginning to stand up on the back of my neck................surely Laurie is telling granny how to suck eggs when he's describing the dangers inherent in keeping primary explosives like lead azide, lead styphnate, (or whatever the current compound is) in a steel cabinet, to shooters?

Pete

Pete wrote:Guys, the hair is beginning to stand up on the back of my neck................surely Laurie is telling granny how to suck eggs when he's describing the dangers inherent in keeping primary explosives like lead azide, lead styphnate, (or whatever the current compound is) in a steel cabinet, to shooters?

Pete

Why are people suggesting it then?