The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

Scotsgun..

"It's essentially the same responce as i got from another forum member here who proudly displayed his grouping shot, complete with coin - used as proof of accuracy.

Have a go at Jenks why don't you





For the record I am not a trained army marksman/sniper. I was a REME armourer and during my service I must have fired many thousands of rounds. I was until recently a recreational stalker. I started shooting at about ten years of age with an air rifle.



This from my fathers reminiscences.

As an example of the low standard of most units. In 1957 (Malaya) I took my Flight (1907 AOP) to the ranges to zero their rifles. As most service people know, this is done by firing with rifle rested at 100 yards and taking the same aim, firing 5 rounds. This should give a “group”. For a good shot this group would all be in a diameter of 4 inches, or possibly 8 inches for a mediocre shot.

I was really disgusted to find that not one could achieve anything like a group (i.e. holes widely spread all over the 4 foot target). Quite useless for the armourer to adjust the fore-sights. I had taken my 12 year old son * along and he produced a satisfactory group, he had previously only fired an air rifle.



Now I don’t claim that I was ever a great shot, in fact I think it fair to say that I’m pretty average. On the subject of shooting small groups. I think that if someone can consistently shoot sub MOA groups then he is demonstrating that his equipment and his technique are sound. That is all

With regard to posting my Photo, well yes I was pretty chuffed to produce my tiny group and I didn’t. mention ACCURACY and further more nor did I say I was capable of doing it on a regular basis. In fact I said it was my ‘best ever’ These days I'm inclined to go along with

Alpha 1 philosophy when he says

I shoot at paper I am a crap shot I dont care life is to short I love being on the range the banter etc.
If the guy next to me shoots the middle out of the target who cares.
If he can drop a animal in full flight at 200yds good for him.
Nothing to get excited about.

On the subject of posting Photo’s. I for one would love to see more photo’s on the forum

For instance it would be nice to be able to put a face to a name. I’m hoping to see lots of Photo’s from the Diggle shoot.

Jenks

This is a difficult one, because it is so subjective, but I'd have to say there is a lot I agree with but for differing reasons.

I'd agree that being able to hit what you aim at under any circumstances is a measure of accuracy, but group size is equally important. If you can't get a consistant group, you'll never be able to hit the target consistantly. This is something I've been drumming into my son with his archery - if he can't do the same thing every single time he'll never put all his arrows in the gold.

All my rifles are able to group better than I am able to achieve, but I am able to hit what I aim at (well, most of time :) ). Admittedly, I'm better out in field than punching holes in targets but probably more due to my upbringing, my military training and the fact I do a lot of dry firing practice with differing positions and holds. Am I a good shot? I'd say fair to middling, but trying to improve.

Scotsgun,
Something to consider, could you have intimidated those shooters into shooting badly? You explained how you had been taught and that may not have been how those two shooters learnt, could your self confessed grumpiness have put them off?

Having said that I do beleive there is an element of truth in this quote of yours,

I honestly believe that regardless of discipline, there are a growing number of shooters out there who are increasingly dependant on technologies, cannot judge distances, have no idea how and why wind effects a bullet in flight and how to calculate even basic bullet drop. They see rifle averts of 'guaranteed' accuracy with 3 close holes or similar pics in magazine reviews and believe that was being an accurate shooter is.

But what is the solution, testing and training prior to getting a licence to hunt?

Jenks wrote:Now I don’t claim that I was ever a great shot, in fact I think it fair to say that I’m pretty average. On the subject of shooting small groups. I think that if someone can consistently shoot sub MOA groups then he is demonstrating that his equipment and his technique are sound. That is all

With regard to posting my Photo, well yes I was pretty chuffed to produce my tiny group and I didn’t. mention ACCURACY and further more nor did I say I was capable of doing it on a regular basis. In fact I said it was my ‘best ever’ These days I'm inclined to go along with

Somewhere, maybe on here I have a picture of a group I shot at 600m ish, only a three shot but it was indicative of the repeatability of the rifle on the day, Christel measured it at 27mm.

Nice.........but not what I was aiming at, my POA was maybe 40mm high left of POI. Now given it was a .125MOA click 'scope I could have dialled in a couple more clicks but I was shooting for groups, I wanted to see how repeatable the rifle/load/myself were when conditions were good.

So this begs the question, given we are trying to hit what we are aiming at, when do we say it is a hit/miss? Or put it differently, what is an acceptable level of accuracy that allows you to say you hit what you aimed at? (regardless of distance)

So this begs the question, given we are trying to hit what we are aiming at, when do we say it is a hit/miss? Or put it differently, what is an acceptable level of accuracy that allows you to say you hit what you aimed at? (regardless of distance)

For me,
Live quarry - when it drops and no follow up is required.

Targets - I'm shooting against myself, so as long I'm having fun, I'm happy.

I can hit a falling plate at 600 metres with my 4(T) and be happy, I am on a torso sized target at a respectable distance. Repeat it 10 times and I know both the rifle and myself are doing what it was designed for, happy days. I accept I am aiming centre mass so I could be out by a few inches in any direction but regardless of this I am on the target.

Aim at a 1" marker at 200m with my 7mm and clip it bottom left and I am not so happy, I was aiming at the middle of something and the POI was off.

Odd how we set different expectations dependant on the rifle we use.

Ah....how about an egg.... :P

christel wrote:Ah....how about an egg.... :P

And if you hit, would you say it was a fluke? a lucky shot? after all you would have been aiming to hit it. always up I guess you could describe it as a scrambled egg.



Jenks

:lol:

Definitely a fluke and a lucky shot all in one. However on the day if I hit it, then of course I was aiming at it.
Of course.

Wahhhhhhh....LOL

christel wrote::lol:

Definitely a fluke and a lucky shot all in one. However on the day if I hit it, then of course I was aiming at it.
Of course.

Wahhhhhhh....LOL

I think we've all done that at some point and thought - (Insert own expletive), How did I do that! or How do I do that again! or some such. :lol:

Scary part for me was on electronics at 1000 yards, I had 5 V's in a row, should I try for 10 or hit the button :?